Becoming known as the go-to business is pretty much ALL we talk about on this podcast BUT what happens when what you’re selling isn’t something that is immediately wanted by your market? How do you become known and become a priority for your market so that they feel compelled to buy from you? I’m joined by Julie Dennis who talks about her breakthrough in revolutionising menopause at work when her market, in the beginning, didn’t want to know.
In this episode we cover:-
- How to raise awareness of a hidden problem to raise demand for your services.
- The ‘White Paper’ strategy that played a key role in the conversion of her clients.
- The ‘Personal Outreach’ approach to secure clients that snowballed into becoming fully booked.
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Please note this transcript is machine generated so it is not perfect and should be used for reference only, you will get the best from the podcast by listening to it in it's designed format.
How do you become known when your market seems disinterested in what you have to offer? We're going to dive in to the perfect case study in this episode.
Welcome to this amazing episode where I welcome a guest onto the podcast to talk about something that I find really, really interesting. And I know you are too. This is Jen Hall, your business positioning coach and market leadership expert. And today I'm really excited to introduce the amazing Julie Dennis. Now, Julie Dennis is someone who has pivoted in the last few years from working with individuals to help them through menopause, to actually working with organizations to help them retain that female talent and help educate their teams and their staff on menopause and how to support their employees through that. And also empowering those female employees with being able to manage their symptoms. And she's had an incredible journey because when she first pivoted to this as we'll find out during the the interview, the market didn't really want to know it wasn't really a hot topic.
It wasn't really supposedly high on their priority list. And the thing is that even though this is what she was confronted with, she had this tenacity that she kept going. And what I love about Julie is that she educated her audience. She educated them on why they should be paying attention to what she's talking about and really educated them on a hidden problem that really wasn't the forefront of their minds, but by the time she was done she was and she's become so successful in what she does, they now do want to know. It's now become a really hot topic for businesses to be focusing on to ensure that they're supporting their employees, that they were taking their talent and that they're being seen as a company who really cares about their employees. And so she's done a fantastic job and she has played a key role in really bringing that topic to service.
She's been fully booked for so long. And to her success has just snowballed. When she first started, it was all about the proactive outreach. Nowadays she's finding time to try and fit her clients in. And you know, like I said, she's, she's fully booked and she keeps getting referral after referral as the person to work with in her field. She is a true market leader, has really dominated her corner of the market. And I'm really excited for you to hear Julie's story to really understand what she's gone through and find those golden nuggets. So if you're experiencing a similar thing where you are trying to really make a Mark in your industry that your audience aren't really listening, then listen to this episode because it's going to give you the hope that you need to show you that sometimes it's a case of perseverance and dedication and really raising awareness of the problem and why they should be paying attention to that problem.
Now just before I dive into that, just to let you know, there are just a few more spaces left on the strategy sessions. I'm looking to close these very, very soon. So the strategy sessions, you might ask, what are they say if you're new to the podcast, these are might evolve and elevate strategy sessions where it walks you through how I've made over 350,000 K in just the last few weeks. I talk about the strategies, the campaigns and the process that I've taken my businesses through and my clients businesses through to really help them reach that market leading success. So if you want to have a nose at the types of campaigns that we've been using, what's really been effective for us, then please do make sure you book into those sessions cause they're not going to be around for much longer until if and when I decided to run them again.
So you make sure you get booked on the link is in the show notes and if you'd like to just fast track to talk to me about how to work with me to become that market leader, then again the link to book a call is in the show notes. I'm looking forward to seeing you on either one of those. And as always, if you're enjoying the podcast pretty, please leave a review because we love a review and it also means that you get a lovely little shout out as well on the next podcast episode. So there we go. Now. So without further ado, I am going to let the interview roll. Enjoy. So welcome. Julie. Thank you so much for joining me on this episode.
Delighted to be here, Jen
Fab Really, really excited. And the reason I'm really excited is because I, I'm really interested about your journey. Before I kind of launch into the questions around the shift that you made and sort of where you've moved into in the success story that's come off the back of that. I'd really like to ask you why you do what you do. Like what's the passion behind helping these organizations with menopause support?
Do you know what? I don't think it's necessarily a passion with me. It just feels like it's the right thing to do. You know, you hear people talking a lot in business about, you know, this is my passion. I'm really passionate about helping people. I'm really passionate about changing the world and I just feel that I'm doing the right thing, not just for the people that I'm working with, but for me as well. It just feels like I'm in the right place. So it's not so much a passion, it's just somewhere I've ended up where I thought I would never be, you know, asked me from five years ago, probably six years ago would you be selling menopause to organizations across the UK? I'd have been like, what? And I think, you know, I'm not really a woo person, but life has eventually by the age of 50, well I'm going to be 50 in June. Anyway, I finally, finally found a place where I'm comfortable with work
Fab. And do you think then it's more of an importance thing rather than a passion?
Yeah, it's important too to me to educate people around menopause and just to make it a topic that it's okay to talk about. And it's important for organizations to recognize it as part of her whole health and wellbeing and a and inclusion piece.
Fab. Exactly. And I'm totally with you on that. And I think, you know, like you said, that word passion can sometimes come across as very woowoo. But I think you know, it's important that what you do is incredibly important. And kind of, I'm going to segue now into kind of asking you a few more questions because before you started working with organizations you made a shift from actually working with individuals. How long ago was that now?
So that would be probably about two and a half, three years ago. Probably about two. Yeah, this is my third year of working with organizations. So prior to that I was working with individuals. I mean my background actually is in a, is in the mining industry, so fairly unusual career path from mining to menopause. And I was major dumped it back in 2013 which actually I was totally okay with, you know, I wasn't doing a job that I hated. I wasn't doing a job that I absolutely loved. I was just doing a job. So when, when they made me redundant and I got a nice payoff, which was helpful at the time, it just gave me the opportunity to sit back and relax and think to know what do I want to do, what do I want to do differently?
And I realized I didn't want to be an employee any longer, but I wasn't sure what I could set my own business up doing. So I thought about what I enjoy doing and at that time what I love doing was running. So I qualified as a personal trainer with a view to teaching people how to run and enjoy running. By the time I've got my personal qualifications, motivators and training qualifications, I changed my mind and decided that actually I wanted to work specifically with women like me. I trained with a lot of 20 somethings who didn't have a clue what it was like to try and exercise in the body of a 40 something. And I realized that that was somewhere that I could really make a difference. Quickly started to realize that the women I was working with and their full tears or they wanted to be fit and thin, like we all do. What they really wanted to be able to do was get rid of menopause symptoms. So I pivoted my business fairly quickly right from the start and I've gone through a number of chain changes. So first of all it was, you know, about running. Then it was about personal training. Then it was about menopause coaching for four individuals. And then about years 3 ago I pivoted to working with organizations
And just, you know, very briefly just because I think this will help a few people out there who are perhaps not enjoying what they're doing and looking to make a pivot. That critical pivot between working with individuals and then working with organizations and corporates. What made you want to make that change?
It was, it was a pure chance. I was at a networking, I used to do an awful lot of networking locally. Which was really useful for my business, especially at the start. And I met a woman there who was she was actually, she actually worked for utility warehouse, which is kind of a franchise organization, but that was her part time role. She also worked for the local police force and they were looking for someone to come in and talk to them about menopause. And she said to me, I know you worked with individuals but do you do talks as well? So I said yes even though I hadn't done beforehand, you know, that kind of thing. Say yes, work out how to do it later. Cause it was kind of exciting the thought of doing something new. And I went along and I spoke to the local police.
We had about, there was about 80 people in the room and I remember standing there watching them all file in and just kind of this excitement building as the room filled up. And I realized that actually I could have so much, much more of an impact in front of a group of people within an organization than I could by working with one person at a time. Cause when you're working with one person at a time the change can be slower cause it's just you and them, you know, so you have some quick early wins. But sustaining that longterm change is a lot harder. Whereas when you're working with an organization and you have the support of all the people within the organization and the people in the organization who are trying to change or manage symptoms or support those with symptoms are all working together. Things happen a lot quicker and they happen on a lot bigger scale
Fab. But obviously I know that menopause at work is a big issue, particularly with organizations not really understanding fully at times how the menopause impacts women. And so I love what you do because I think it kind of hits everything from all angles. It helps the individual, but it also helps the individual from the other angle of helping the organization to support them and have more understanding around the issues as well.
Yeah. And you know, it's not just about the individual, it's about the business too. And I'm very clear about that. When I speak to organizations, you know, it was, it wasn't an easy sell to begin with. After my first initial flush of success. It did go quiet. It did go quiet for a couple of couple of months cause it wasn't an easy sell because places was like, you know, why would we want to talk about menopause? You know, nobody wants to talk about it. There's the stigma attached to it. It's got nothing to do with work anyway. And it's not relevant to the business. But actually what I found was useful to us to look at the journey with mental health in organizations. So, you know, 10 years ago we wouldn't have dreamed talking about anxiety or depression openly at work.
But nowadays it's unusual for an organization not have a mental health policy in place to have mental health first aiders and for it to be something that they just talk about. A menopause is following hot on the heels of that. Really. So once I made that connection between the mental health journey that organizations had taken and the menopause journey that they could take, they were much more open to it. So one of the questions that I'd ask when I was consulting was, what have you done around mental health? And we'd look at that platform and those initiatives and use that as a springboard for bringing menopause conversations into the organization. Because it's the same around the stigma, the lack of understanding, the fear of saying the wrong thing of doing the wrong thing,some people just simply not wanting to talk about it. And that's okay too. And I think, you know, that's something that we need to, or that we often forget with conversations like these people are so much about, you know, we need to talk about this stuff. We need to be open about it. And yet for some people that is the right thing to do. But for others, they don't want to share. They don't want to talk about their personal experiences around menopause. And we should respect that too. Whether that's a personal request from then or whether it's, you know, it's a cultural issue.
Absolutely. And I'm loving the way you're taking the conversation on this because this is going to be my next question really. And you partially answered that in terms of, you know, when you, when you first went out there, you didn't particularly get, like you say, the, the welcomed with open arms approach and you've had to kind of worm your way in. And I think a lot of people you know, who particularly have a passion or feel like there's an importance to something, feeling like they're on this kind of ivory tower where they're preaching to everybody but nobody's listening. And so I really love the way you talked about using a different angle, which is being talked about. Can you tell us a bit more about that? So you obviously went through on the mental health springboard. What kind of messaging were you using off the back of that to then take the shift over to the menopause angle?
Well, so it's about the benefits to the individual. And essentially, you know, when you've got a happy, happy workforce it's good for the bottom line too. So it's talking to organizations, not just about the benefits for the individual, but for the benefits for the business. You know, when people are feeling well, when they're able to bring their whole selves to work, when they're able to talk about any issue that they want to comfortably in the office, when their line managers are trained to understand and look out for signs and symptoms and to recognize that reasonable adjustments can be put in place quite quickly without disrupting other team members. When you make organizations understand that it's really good for the people, it's really good for the company to, you know, people are working harder, they're more engaged, they see more opportunities.
You've got the competitive edge, you're improving gender parity. You know, one of the bigger gap, bigger gaps in the, in the gender pay gap is around women in their forties and fifties. You know, the gap starts to really get much bigger than that. So there's all those business angles to look at as well as the benefits to the individual. Some of the companies that I work for have now won awards on the back of the menopause work that they've done. You know, which is great for PR too. And we wanna we want to work for companies that are doing good things for their people.
Fab. And I really like the way you're finding these different angles that both benefits the individual but also benefits to the organizations as well. And actually looking at, you know, how they can do that. And so your strategies and approaches, am I right in saying that a lot of the time they were personal outreach?
Well, in order to find organizations yet person outreach. So I would look on LinkedIn. There's a lot of people, just go in and just privately message all the HR people or all the diversity inclusion leads on LinkedIn and ask them, you know, ask them for a conversation. But what I found worked better for me was looking at what people were posting, you know, targeting an industry or a list of organizations and looking at what people within that organization were posting about and then connecting them on the back of that, you know, I've seen you posted about this topic. It really interested me because would you be interested in having a conversation? Would you be interested in receiving my monthly newsletter about menopause at work? Would you be interested in reading my white paper? Would you mind filling in my recent survey? And just connecting with people on a personal individual basis that was relevant to them at that time as opposed to sending out, you know, a number of blanket requests.
Brilliant. Thank you so much for sharing that because I think a lot of people, you know, wonder how this kind of magic happens, how you kind of seal the deal and get those conversations going. And I'm assuming, you know, when you're out there and you're looking at what other people are posting, you're also obviously, I'm assuming sort of commenting on the angle. So like you say if there's commenting or posting about something to do with gender parity is making that link back, I'm assuming to what you're doing and how you're helping.
Sometimes sometimes I would comment or sometimes I would just take it offline immediately. Cause that was just a, I'm quite direct person. That's just how I work. So I thought I, you know, I could spend weeks and months commenting on other people's posts and building relationships or actually I can just message them directly and comment to them privately about what they've written. And I've got some really good responses with that. And, you know, you're talking about the magic that happens. And actually it's mostly it's about hard work and consistency and commitment. You know, it's not very often that you'll send out a couple of requests and get responses back the same day and you know, you're often often selling it can take a while to build these things and you can get ignored for a long time too. And you've just gotta let it go. You know, people will get in touch with you when they're ready. I have clients now who I first started talking to probably 18 months ago offline, but it taken them that long to come around to the T the fact that they need to talk about menopause, find the budget for it, found that, find the buy in locally. So just, you've got to be patient as well, I think.
Brilliant. And what have you been doing during that time of waiting? I'm assuming you're sort of keeping them warm and staying top of minds and sort of sharing messages with them in some way, shape or form, whether that's through content or, or just keeping in touch.
Yeah. So keeping in touch, a phone call occasionally just to say hi, how are you? What's going on? Like I mentioned, I've got my monthly newsletter pause for thought. So, and that's a really easy win, you know, in terms of getting micro-commitments from people before you can actually sell to them. If you can, if you just say something like, you know, quick question, would you be interested in receiving my monthly newsletter, which includes a, B, and C and we'll help, we'll help, we'll help you to do, you know, X, Y, and Z. Then that's a really quick win that they'll say yes to. And then you're in their inbox once a month, whether they're reading those emails or not. It doesn't matter if you're in their inbox, you're there seeing Julie Dennis menopause every month. So when menopause comes up in their organization, finally it'd be like Julie Dennis. So that's the first name that comes into their head when they think about it.
Amazing. Pleased that you mentioned around your newsletter, because I see this a lot, and this is a big mistake a lot of people make is just saying, join my newsletter. But you've made it very clear about what they will achieve by signing up to something like that because yeah, because other than the answer will a hundred percent be no if you don't actually show them some kind of transformation or benefit to them for doing so. And the other thing I want to pull up as well is you mentioned about your white paper. Now this is something that not every, some people have heard of it. If you're working in the corporate world, you probably most likely would have heard of it, but for a lot of people, can you just explain what the white paper is and what your white paper specifically helps with?
Yeah, so white paper sounds really impressive, obviously. Super impressive. Sounds impressive in my mind it's just a long article essentially. Proving a point, you know, so the point that I was craving was that menopause matters at work. So you know, you've got your introduction piece about what menopause is including some case studies about some work that I'd done with other organizations, including some tips about, you know, what companies can do quickly to get the conversation started. And they're obviously have your light little sales pitch at the end. So it's just, it's just a long article. It's nothing to be frightened of. You just have to get on with it. It's kind of like doing your homework. I think that something like a white paper, you know, when you used to put it off and put it off and put it off, be watching songs of praise on a Sunday night rather than, you know, writing about pride and prejudice or whatever you were supposed to be doing. And I've done two white papers now. So the first one I did was over two years ago. And when I looked back at it recently, I was like, Oh God, you know, my thinking has changed so much since then, but it doesn't matter. You know, you just have to do it and get out there. So when I rewrote it in March this year, I just blocked out a whole day in my diary and that was the only thing on my to do list for that day. Right. The white paper. And that's what I did.
Amazing. And how effective has that been in helping to get that message out there around the importance of having, you know, a support around menopause?
Really effective, you know it's got nice big font. It's got some pictures in it is easy to read. It's easy for people to pick out the bits that are relevant for them. And again it's another easy micro-commitment from a potential lead. Would you like to see a copy of my white paper? I think it would benefit you because and somebody will say yes to that. And again, they might not read it the first time or even the second time that you sent it to them, but eventually they'll, they're just getting that connection in their head. If they want to know about menopause at some point, Julie Dennis is the person they'll speak to about that. So it's making sure that whatever your niche is, your name is connected with, that every time your kind of hot lead is thinking about it.
Brilliant. And so for somebody out there who is looking to bring something that they believe is really important and should absolutely be supported either by an organization or even as an individual and getting that message out there to help raise the awareness on that issue and actually make sales off the back of that awareness, what would your advice be to them?
I think it's what I said earlier, really it's about consistency and commitment. You've just got to keep at it. You know, when I first started doing that, that first three months when I started selling to organizations, I posted on LinkedIn every single day, every single week day. You know, sometimes it was a short post, sometimes it was a longer one, sometimes it was just a quote, but I was visible all the time. You know, going back to that thing again about when people think about your niche, they need to think about your name. You know, especially if you're in a really busy niche. But if you're in a new niche like me, it's even more important that they think about you first of all because you know there's going to be other people coming up about you. So be absolutely consistent with your visibility.
Don't get upset when people ignore you. They will. And if your post don't get any likes or comments, don't take that as a sign that they're no good or that nobody's reading them. Because what I quite often find as well when I'm out and about is people say, Oh, you know, I read that comment you wrote. I thought that was really good. I've noticed you've been really visible lately and they haven't, but they haven't actually bother commenting or liking. But they just, you know, cause we all do it, don't we? We look at stuff I think, or maybe I'll come back to it later, maybe I won't, you don't, but it doesn't mean it hasn't registered just because you're not getting the comments and likes
A great, great advice that, you know, an a particularly on the, on the fact of I'm so one of these people who read something, Oh that's really interesting. And then I have to, on the odd occasion I catch herself like go back and like it Jen, I just like, I'm, I'm off. I'm like, yeah, brilliant, great. Next thing. So, yeah, absolutely. And I think you're totally right. It's staying, it's staying top of mind. I think visibility is, is really important. And you've talked about like keeping in touch.
And I know you talk about this as well, but it's being really specific in your messaging don't get distracted by other stuff that's going on, you know, stay in your own lane, be aware of your competitors, but don't be reading everything that they post because you don't want to be talking in their words. You want to be talking in your words with your own spin on your particular topic. So always stay in your own lane.
Amazing. And what do you feel is different about you and what you provide versus your competitors say?
Mine's a very personal service, my brand is really me, you know, I'm selling me as well as menopause. So the companies that buy from me buy from me because they like me. So I'm not, you know, I don't have a large training company. I'm a single person consultancy. So what they get is a customized solutions. You know, I'm not selling a one size fits all where I do consultative selling. I listened to what was going on within an organization and then I sell them what they need. So, you know, I've got a number of different packages in mind and suites and services that I offer, but I made sure that I listened to what the company need before I made that offer.
Brilliant. And what do you think it is about you that attracts organizations to want to work with you?
I'm pretty relaxed. I think. I I don't take it too seriously. You know, I think we're especially, you know, going back to that word passion that we talked about right at the beginning, you know, you can, when you are very passionate, when you really care about something, you can really take your topic very seriously. But actually companies want a bit of lightheartedness to a bit of, you know, if you introduce a bit of humor, don't be afraid of trying to make your client laugh. I do it all the time.
And I think as well, you know, knowing you on a personal level as well, you're also quite direct and I'm saying that as, as, as, as a positive as someone else who is equally as direct. I absolutely love that attitude and I think that can go down really well.
I think it does. And you know, the one place that I am super, super direct actually is where it comes to fees and pricing. So, you know, and I think that's something that we can tie ourselves in knots about. But when I am talking to organizations on the phone and we reached the end of the conversation and it's getting towards the fees and sometimes they'll say, well you know, do you want me to put, just put a proposal together and you know, map out what you think this will cost. And actually what I try to do is have that conversation on the phone there and then to try and get a ballpark figure of what their budget is, talk about what the kind of money that I have in mind so they don't then have to come off the phone and get really axed him worrying, you know, get my knickers in a twist about how much I'm going to charge. Cause I've already been open about it and direct about it. Knowing how much money they've got, a know how much I'm going to work for.
And sort of like you said, being direct about finding out what that budget is first and foremost. So many people get so scared about asking that question but it's just so important.
Yeah. And sometimes they don't know and that's okay. In which case, you know, you just pitch where you think it's right and there is no right for you by the way. You've just got to go with the one that you're comfortable with. And I would add as well that in the early days, you know, my fees kind of what would around quite a bit depending on how robust I was feeling.
But I think the good thing as well as you know about that kind of, you know, with the organizations and the personal outreach is that actually that could be quite forgiving if your prices are very public, you've got to stick to your guns, otherwise you will just look weak in the eyes of the public. But you know, you've got a bit more leeway when you're dealing with organizations on that level. And I'm trying to find that sweet spot and also not just the sweet spot for them, but finding the right one for you because I'm sure you've taken on contracts in the past where you just thought, why on earth would I do it for that cost?
Yeah. Oh yeah, absolutely. Of course it does. It happens in the early days. And you know, I look back on it now and I think, well, you know, it's still, it was experience. It's you know, it's a testimonial that I got from that session. I still help people. So take the positives out from, from everything that you do and try not to beat yourself up too much if if you've gone in a lower figure than you really wanted to.
Absolutely. I mean I've done it myself, you know, when I've created a new new product or something and it's the first time I've sold it. And then after I thought, what are you doing Jen? But like you say it's weirdly, sometimes those ones tend to be the most successful. So you've got to throw your all into it anyway and you know, you do find that these ones will always turn out, turn out for the bathroom,
Do you need that? And then you get referrals from that, from that sale. So, you know, there are wins from every sale. It's not just about what's gonna say is all about the money, but it's not just about the money.
And also cause obviously moving on to, you know, the, the success story, we've talked a lot about you pushing into that industry. And making sure your messaging is correct and sticking with it, being consistent, you know, keeping people warm. That consistency hugely paid off for you, didn't it? Cause you said about, you know, referrals you ended up getting like wait-lists didn't you for the amount of people that refer
Really fortunate position. Now in my third year, the about 90% of the businesses comes from inbound leads by which I mean I'm not having to go out and search for business any longer. It's coming, it's coming to me. And that's down to that, you know, that consistency of messaging. It's down to delivering as well as I possibly can for each and every one of my clients. And it's about asking my clients as well. Is there anyone else that you know in your industry that you think I could help? So yeah, the majority of my work now comes through referral.
That's amazing. And I just kind of want to point out for everyone listening that there are so many different ways to become known, but you are proof that becoming well known for being worth knowing has really, really worked. And you know, you are a market leading with this. And I think it's fantastic. And I, you know, a lot of people think market leaders or they're famous, you know, you say their name and you know them. It's not about that. It's about dominating your corner of the market, your corner of the market. You are your corner that you have become well known. Your name is bandied about between different organizations.
Yeah. That's really interesting what you say about the fame piece. You know, because I've never been interviewed on tele. I've done a couple of local radios. I've had, you know, been quoted a couple of times in the newspaper, but I'm not, you know if you look at kind of the, the, the famous people in the menopause space, if you like, my name won't be among them. But if you look at the people who were actually doing the work, that's where my name is and that's where I'm happy with it.
Absolutely. Exactly that. And that's the thing, you're the one that's getting paid to do it. Yeah.
Okay. I'm not on the tele cause I'm at work. Yeah. World menopause day is the 18th of October and every year, you know, there's this Scrabble for people to get loads of publicity. And like when I'm always working, it's like, it's like following the money.
That's the thing, isn't it? It isn't about the fame. It's about being famous for the right thing and actually making those sales because that's what a market leader is. It's somebody who was actually, you know, lapping up a good proportion of their market. And that's what you're doing. And I absolutely love what you do. And I'm so, so just so proud and amazed at and inspired by the journey that you've taken. Honestly, it's so great to see a success story. And what I love about you is that, like you say, you are consistent and you're quite hard, no hard nose with it, and you've kept going. Even even when people were saying no, you've kept it up and it's really paid off. And so many people falter at that first hurdle when they keep hearing the nose or they keep hearing, they're not right now, wouldn't, you know, it's not on top of mind, you really stuck with it. You've educated, you've shown them that actually it is important and you've been really inventive with the different ways that you've done that with your white paper, with your messaging. And you know, getting, like you say, getting them onto your list so you can start educating them to your way of thinking. And that's just paid off in, you know, in leaps and bounds.
Oh, thank you. Yeah, ultimately I really enjoy what I do, you know, like as I said, you know, I'm 50 and I've finally, finally found the thing that I'm good at and that I enjoy.
Brilliant. And you know, that's, that's a huge win. I think so many people. And it's great also, you know, on that note that you know you're honest about the pivots you've made. And I think a lot of people do pivot a lot in their, in their, when they first start out doing something, but you find your groove eventually, you know, it's just about trial and error in that sense. And you know, you, you, you eventually find your place and I'm just really pleased that you've, you've found yours and you're doing such amazing work for these organizations.
So thank you, Jen.
No, thank you. And thank you so much for joining us, Julie. If we do have any oranizations or anyone interested in finding more about what you do work, where can people find you?
Okay, so come and find me on LinkedIn. Please connect with me on LinkedIn. I love it when I get a message, when people want to connect with me, by the way, as opposed to just a connection request or otherwise, have a look at my website, which is Juliedennis.net.
Fab. Thank you so much for joining me, Julie.